349 SelfWork: Shrinks Are People Too: A Conversation with Shit Talking Shrinks Paulina and Victoria

When I was contacted by Paulina Siegel about being on her podcast, Shit Talking Shrinks, I was intrigued. She and her friend and colleague Victoria Aron are in Season Two of an hilarious, fresh challenge to the stereotype of the "therapist" - someone who's emotionally calm and somehow "above it all." So this is an expletive-filled SelfWork episode today - because guess what? Therapists can use colorful language as well! Yes, we offer our expertise in creating an emotionally safe space for you to risk your own healing and growth. But the old "immutable" therapist - the one who rarely interjects their own personality - is an identity that both these therapists challenge. And they do it with laughter and fun, intelligence and caring. I've long been "myself" as a therapist. I don't suddenly don some cloak as soon as a patient comes through the door. The unique nature of the therapeutic relationship lies in the focus on the issues of one person, the client. And yet, to gain trust, these women believe that being more real is the key to what trust looks like in 2023. So come laugh with us and listen in to what was a very fun conversation! And get to know Paulina Siegel and Victoria Aron, as they tackle issues that especially millennials and Gen Z'ers face. Advertiser's Link: BetterHelp, the #1 online therapy provider, has a special offer for you now! You can hear more about this and many other topics by listening to my podcast, SelfWork with Dr. Margaret Rutherford. Subscribe to my website and receive my weekly newsletter including a blog post and podcast! If you’d like to join my FaceBook closed group, then click here and answer the membership questions! Welcome!   My book entitled Perfectly Hidden Depression is available here! Its message is specifically for those with a struggle with strong perfectionism which acts to mask underlying emotional pain. But the many self-help techniques described can be used by everyone who chooses to begin to address emotions long hidden away that are clouding and sabotaging your current life. And it's available in paperback, eBook or as an audiobook! And there's another way to send me a message! You can record by clicking below and ask your question or make a comment. You’ll have 90 seconds to do so and that time goes quickly. By recording, you’re giving SelfWork (and me) permission to use your voice on the podcast. I’ll look forward to hearing from you! Episode Transcript This is SelfWork. And I'm Dr. Margaret Rutherford. At SelfWork, we'll discuss psychological and emotional issues common in today's world and what to do about them. I'm Dr. Margaret and Self-Work is a podcast dedicated to you, taking just a few minutes today for your own self-work. Hello and welcome or welcome back to SelfWork. I'm Dr. Margaret Rutherford, and I'm so glad you're here. Let me read you an email I recently received. "I feel grateful to be able to write to you as I love the SelfWork podcast. It has brought me so much joy, vitality, support, and wellness over the months. Of course, that made me feel good. My name is Paulina or Pauly Siegel, and I'm a licensed clinical social worker, certified addiction specialist. And I'm master level trained mindfulness practitioner. I specialize in Gen Z and millennials struggling with trauma, O C D, anxiety and generational specific issues. I've also started a podcast called Shit Talking Shrinks, which intertwines clinical expertise and humor to bring you something that is both psychoeducational and entertaining. Our podcast breaks down mental health topics, the human experience and society at large, while leaving you with tangible tools to navigate life more effectively." So, of course I listen to the podcast, and by the way, this one is going to be pretty baudy with lots of language. So, you know, use your own judgment in listening. But their podcast is entertaining and hilarious and real and informative and supportive. Polly has a no holds barred co-host, Victoria Arin, who's in practice herself. And between the two of them, there's an energy that was so refreshing and funny. In fact, I've never laughed more in an interview, and I hope you will as well. As I said, there's a bunch of expletives in this one and we talk about sex. So a heads up there. These two therapists are angry at how the mental health profession teaches therapists that they need to somehow look above it all, or as if they're not human too. And we are most definitely human. We get teed off, we get constipated. We cuss... What we do have (that you've heard me talk about many times on SelfWork), we have experience in listening and sharing a different kind of relationship with you than you're going to get with a friend. We have expertise in certain issues and struggles, and we're going to offer that to you But because it's often deeply personal, we enter a relationship with you that hopefully feels safe and secure while we're also folks just like you. So this is gonna be a journey. But before we continue, let's hear from Better Help. I recently heard a fascinating reframe for the idea of asking for help. Maybe you view asking for help as something someone does who's falling apart or who isn't strong. So consider this. What if asking for help means that you won't let anything get in your way of solving an issue, finding out an answer or discovering a better direction? Asking for help is much more about your determination to recognize what needs your attention or what is getting in your way of having the life you want better help. The number one online therapy provider makes reaching out about as easy as it can get. Within 48 hours, you'll have a professional licensed therapist with whom you can text, email, or talk with to guide you. And you're not having to come through therapist websites or drive to appointments. It's convenient, inexpensive, and readily available. Now you can find a therapist that fits your needs with better help. And if you use the code or link Better help.com/self work, you get 10% off your first month of sessions. So just do it. You'll be glad you did That. Link again is better help.com/ self-work to get 10% off your first month of services And now a different kind of SelfWork. For those of you who can handle the language and wanna have a great deal of fun, come join me and Polly and Victoria. I'm really glad to meet y'all. I I've listened to a couple of your episodes and they're really good and I I was delighted. Yes. And so anyway I love what you're doing and Okay. Can you just tell me a little bit about yourselves First, I'd love to just find out who you are, where you are, where you came from, , Paulie, take the lead. Okay. well, hello everyone. I'm Paulina Siegel. I have a private practice in both Illinois and Colorado. Oh, that's, that specializes... That's a lot . It is a lot. It is a lot. But it's been fun and it's been going for five years now, so I'm really grateful for the journey. But I specialize in Gen Z and millennials. How do you know Victoria? Yes. So Victoria and I met in Illinois. I moved to Illinois in August of 2021. Mm-Hmm. and I met Victoria through a mutual colleague. And this colleague ended up calling me and was like, "You have to meet Victoria. She is the coolest, she's cooler than you." And that's hard to say. That's great. And Victoria, where are you? And, and you're in Illinois obviously, so Yeah, so I'm in the suburbs of Chicago. And I have a private practice as well. Okay. I do, I do concierge, sober coaching and case management. Wonderful. So, yeah, so I'm trained as a social worker. I have certifications and process and substance use disorders. And I kind of, I'm actually coming up on the two year anniversary of my practice. And when I met Paulina, I had no real desire to be part of a podcast. Didn't really think about it. I just knew that I wanted to perform. I lo I've always loved it. I love being center of attention. I love telling stories. . So this is like the best Of both? Both. That's not me at all. Not me at all. No, no, no. . That's how I have a whole room outfit. Right. Studio . Yeah. My whole career is built off myself, but I don't wanna be the center. So... now Pauly, you were trying to tell us what you, what you focus on or what you specialize in. Yeah, Yeah. No worries. Gen Z and millennials, so anyone 15 to 43. I do a lot of trauma o c d, anxiety work. I was very involved in the addiction world for a while and sort of phased out cuz I got a little bit burnt out. And that's why we have the Victoria's of the world because she, she has all the grit and resiliency that's needed to do the work. But I've really liked focusing on more of the strictly the mental health side of things. But yeah, I I really I'm so pleased to talk with y'all and and just talk about millennials, gen Zs. I am always honored when someone, you know, in, in that, in those generations. I don't do Gen Zs, some millennials I do still. So I have a 28 year old son, so I'm at least somewhat in touch with that stuff. . Yeah. So what has the podcast? The podcast is called Shit Talking Shrinks. Mm-Hmm. . And you've been doing it for two seasons now, is that right? Mm-Hmm. , we launched in January. Oh. Oh. So mm-hmm. , this is your second season that... You're this is our second season currently. What's it been like? Incredible, incredible. I mean, not only has has like, just spending more time with Paulina and talking and talking about things we care about been amazing, but the way that people have responded to us in such a short period of time has been actually just like shocking. Yeah. You know, I did not know that it would be what it is and I have no idea where it's gonna go. And that's so amazing. And Paulina is just the most incredible partner. She's like the steam engine of it all. Oh, yeah. It's nice to hear. You know, when I was trained, I went to the University of Texas Southwestern Medical School and it was shifting from a psychoanalytic viewpoint, which I wasn't wild about to a C B T, you know, and. But we were still these anonymous therapists, you know, we were supposed to not have personalities and lives and, you know, just be this immutable source. But I got really bored when I started actually practicing anyway. I... what I found was that the more real I got both as a therapist, not that I pounded people with my own story. But, and then, when I got on social media, the fact I have panic disorder and the fact that I have a history of anorexia and I've been divorced twice mm-hmm. , all that stuff was just, you know, I, people loved it. I was scared they'd turn it off and go, well what is she doing being a psychologist? Is that anything like what y'all have experienced? Yeah. Yeah. So That is that, that's the birth of Shit Talking Shrinks  - exactly what you just said. Because when I went through my MSW program at DU, I remember it was the same foundation and the same philosophy. Don't disclose anything, be very polished, seem honestly like an alien. Like, don't bring any of your human, human elements. Keep a straight face, be very aware of your emotions. Right. It was all the, all this inauthenticity like that, that's how it was registered and that's how it was internalized. And then when I tried to take that and my private practice and embody it, because that's what I was told I should do as a clinician mm-hmm. , it was awful. And it was boring and inauthentic and I, I didn't feel like I could fully be myself as I interacted with my clients. Mm-Hmm. and that, and because I couldn't do that, the work was dull. Mm-Hmm. and the work was bland and there wasn't the depth and the scope that I think is required to make eally transformative change with your clients. Mm-Hmm. . And so I started to kind of like, tease with not being that way, but I still felt like this armor was on of like, I gotta do what, you know, my professors told me and what DU told me. And it got so exhausting to the point where I was like, I need to break free. Like, we need to be Shit Talking Shrinks. Like, I just Need to be able To say the word, Be okay with it. Right, right, right. Yes. Yeah. Amazing. Anyway, what about for you, Victoria? What about for you? Well, I mean, I experienced it in my personal life. Like, I've had conversations. I remember, you know, like before I was opening my own practice, I, my mom, I was, we were like talking and I was like, "Ugh, I hate that bitch".  And she was like, "Oh my God, aren't you a therapist?" And I was like, . Yeah. I was like, I'm a human so I'm gonna hate people, you know, I'm not gonna , I'm not gonna be perfect. And it's, and it's, you know, that's, I I tell people all the time who are who I'm consulting with or who I'm, you know, are, are seeing if they wanna, they wanna work with me like I am fully myself mm-hmm. and not, it's not for everybody. Right. It's not good to, and it's for everybody. Mm-Hmm. No. And because I'm so intimate with my clients and I'm in their lives for such a, you know, substantial period of time, they better like me. Yeah. You know. Exactly. If they don't, we shouldn't work together. So, so what are you finding with your work with millennials and, and Gen Z'ers that are their particular, what are you most concerned about mental health wise with this generation and what are you most glad about that has happened and it, and you see happening? I would say for me, what I am so glad about is there's a connection and a value and authenticity and wanting to heal and wanting to do the work. You know, there isn't the same stigma or the same embarrassment, normal, normal that that previous generations, Gen Xers and Boomers had, where they're not embarrassed to say, I'm struggling and I'm anxious and I'm depressed and I'm stressed out. Like, there's, there's the willingness to, to take off the mask mm-hmm. . And I think that really allows for the deeper work and for it to the, there as a clinician, there isn't the need to have to like crack the code, right? Mm-Hmm. , it's like it's already there and they want to go in and they want to change. And so I think for that, that's for me the beauty and the richness of working with millennials. And then I think the concern is really the poor coping skills and the lack of grit and resiliency. Ugh. And, and research has confirmed this. Gen X and Boomers really developed a lot of grit and resiliency in coping mechanisms to get through the adversity and the life challenges. Millennials, on the other hand, due to parenting and different external variables, didn't develop the same sort of shields and the ability to move through the discomfort in the same way. And so we are really ill-equipped, and I see that clinically I do too. I, I wrote down here fear of adulting. Yes. It's just, I see that all the time from college students to other people in that age group. But is that what you see Victoria as well? I really like what Pauline said. Mm-Hmm. Yeah. I I think there's like fear in general, you know, like fear just seems like this perverse sickness that's especially with Gen Z, you know, like there's, they have more access to information than.. than ever before. Right. And it, they are paralyzed by it. Mm-Hmm. Like having a conversation with a Gen Zer is, I mean, I, it just makes me sick because it, there's such a lack and it's, of course I'm stereotyping and I'm overgeneralizing and it's all hyperbole because that's who I am. Right. But like, it sometimes it's like you could literally be the most brilliant on the earth. You could literally be the most educated, the most understanding, the most, you know, blah, blah, blah. But there's like no ability to actually comprehend anything because there's just being like, these people are just being bombarded constantly by information. Exactly. And so I, I think it is, I think it's fear and I would be the same. Yeah. You know, like, I'm millennial Old. How old are y'all? I'm 31. Okay, so you're a millennial. Yeah. And I started using drugs when I was 12, so I I like fully understand Sure. That it's, it's terrifying to be a part of this world to be, you know, especially as it is today. Mm-Hmm. , I couldn't even imagine. Paulie, how old are you? 26. I'm 12 . Do I look, do I, do I Look 12? I hope so. I hope, I hope the Botox is working. . It's Working. You Look like a baby. Yeah. No, I'm Dreams. Goals, hashtag goals. I am 32 and I will be 33 in January. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So, so are you also in recovery, Paulie? I'm not. Okay. Well, I'm in recovery from an eating disorder, but not in recovery from substances. Okay. So what just immediately comes to mind is you want talking shrinks to be, what do you want people to walk away feeling, thinking, experiencing? I'll, I'll go, I'll jump in. I want them, I want them to laugh. Yeah. I want them to be able to be lighthearted as they listen through an episode. I want them to have tangible tools where they walk away and they're able to have applicable skills that they can apply immediately to make life filled with more vitality. Mm-Hmm. and I, I, I want them to be able to feel our humanness and know that we are just ordinary people that struggle, that freak out, that have meltdowns that are in it. Like there's the collective human, the collective humanity of this mm-hmm. . And if I think those three things, they walk away with their life being a little bit different. They laughed and they realize that we're we're just idiots. That's great. I'm happy. Yeah, exactly. . Well, I had a patient walk away from a session recently, and as she was walking down the steps, she looked back over her shoulder and she goes, now she's around my age. And she said, I hope I'm like you when I grow up. And I thought that's what we're gonna talk about next session, , because she's, she's projecting so much stuff onto me that, and I've been very real and that. But maybe that's it though, Margaret, like, maybe because you are authentic, you know, because you are fully yourself and she, That's a good point. I think that's so at attract, I mean, that's what's become attractive to me mm-hmm. as I, as I have become more myself because I... Good point....You know, like I've hidden myself for a long time at a lot of different parts. And so when I meet people that are like, who they are, I'm not perfect. This is what's going on. I'm like, oh, I like you . Yeah. You know? Well, I mentioned it to her and I said something about, you know, we're focused on your struggles. This relationship isn't about focusing on mine, so I don't want you to forget that I have them. And she goes, oh, I know you do . And I said, that's good. I love that. How, how is doing the podcast changing you as a therapist, changing you as a person? What do you think? Well, I think for, I think the podcast... the podcast itself is bringing so much joy and lightness. And as, as Victoria said, I also had that deep desire to be performative and theatrical. Yeah. Like that, that is so connected to who I am and my values. But really what's happened with the podcast is I've learned so much from Victoria in the sense that she has challenged me to look at the shadow parts of myself, the parts of myself that I think I've ignored for a very, very long time. Maybe not intentionally, I just didn't have the awareness to see that there were, there were wounded parts of me that kept manifesting in the process, Not, people listening Don't know what" shadow"  aspects of yourself are. Maybe you can explain that a little bit. Yeah. I think the parts of myself that, you know, are, are wounded, the parts of myself that are rooted in attachment injury, the, the stuff that I experienced in my upbringing and really the, the darker adaptive parts of myself, the ways that I had to survive and survived the struggle that I went through growing up. Mm-Hmm. . And because those parts weren't healed, they were coming out in really ugly ways, not while we were recording, but behind the scenes Right. Where I was showing up in ways that were detrimental to Victoria and I, and I think she has shed so much light on that and has invited me to do the deeper work with my own therapist and do the deeper work that needs to be done for really the long haul mm-hmm. and that I have an abundance of gratitude for. Oh, that's nice. What about you, Victoria? Love that. Yeah. Really. Yeah. That's a huge compliment. That's, thank you. It's true. It's been an honor to show you yourself, . I like being a mirror. I, I do. Because, because it's the same for me, right. Like Paulina, Paulina and I are not just podcast co-hosts and not just colleagues, like we're we're soul sisters. That's, that's really what it is. I think the, the coolest thing that's come for me in terms of the podcast is this journey of really allowing myself to be exactly who I am. Mm-Hmm. , you know, nobody's ever stopped me but me. So, Oh, You know, like when I met Paulina, I was embarking on that journey and I was, I was ending a, a long-term relationship. I was, you know, there's a lot changing in my life. And this last 10 months of my life, I, I say it all the time, it's just, it's so obnoxious, but it's like, it's been the most freeing and the podcast is like so integral to that. Mm-Hmm. , you know. Well, I think, you know, I think I've read some of your reviews and that kind of thing that's obviously coming, coming across. It's just really coming across strong. So good for the two of you. Where do you wanna go with it? What do you wanna, I mean, the reason why I wanted to have y'all on primarily was to talk a little bit about millennials and mental health, but was also to really let people know about your podcast so that mm-hmm. anyway. What, where are you going with it? What do you wanna create? Or are you already there? Do you or you know, whatever. I wanna be a Star Mom. You wanna be a star ? Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's, it's a really funny question. That's why when you, when it came off your tongue, I, I laughed because when I s when I started with Victoria and I looked at her and I said, you wanna do a podcast with me? This is, this is so Victoria. Yeah, sure. Whatever. Sure. That sounds great. . And I'm like, I'm so glad you're in. But like, Diver, can I, Can I explain my vision to you? No. She's like, yeah, sure. What's your vision? I mean, I'll show up like, we'll do it. And I'm like, no, But, But my vision is like, I want this to be big girlfriend. Like, I want us to, I want to have a brand behind this. Are you in? She's like, listen, here's my boundaries. Here's what I can do, here's what I can't do. If you wanna make that happen, do it. She's not, she's not from New York, but she kind of is, you know, in her essence, . And that was so yes to, to make a long story short, you know, we really wanna be able to touch as many people as we can. We want the episodes to be fun and lighthearted and have humor, but also be really hopeful. Yes. And beneficial. Yes. Tell, tell the audience a little bit about what some of your, the, the ones you like the best. What have, what have been the content of some of the podcasts you've liked the best? Yeah. You go first, Victoria. I know obviously This one, right? Obviously this, so Yeah, of course. Yes. Our podcast with Dr. Margaret is number one . I think the, so for me, the type of person I am, the, the podcast that I love the most are like our modern dating podcast. I think it's Oh, so f our mo or mo Modern dating episode. It's so funny. Our values episode is funny. I like humor. Right? So that's why Pauline and I work, is because Paulina brings, she brings the organization, she brings the joy, she brings the education. Right. And I just bring straight talking. Yeah, yeah. You know, well, it's the Straight man and the, it's the word for centuries, you know? Exactly. . Everybody Needs. So like, my favorite episodes are the ones that are the most unhinged, . And, and that's, and that's just what it is. , You know, Paulie, I don't reference to you're wanting to be known. I live in a fairly, we're under a hundred thousand people, so fairly small. Where Do you live in Arkansas? Fayetteville, Arkansas. In the northwest part of the state. So we're a little liberal community in my very conservative (Woah), Arkansas. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. So anyway, we walked into a restaurant and I said, you know, said, "Do you have reservations"? I said, "Yes, it's for two, it's under Rutherford." And she looked at me and she goes, "aAre you Margaret Rutherford?" And I said, "yes" "I recognize your voice. I love your podcast". We, we went to the table and my husband, who's very sarcastic, looks at mean, goes, "If this happens much more, I'm not gonna be able to stand living with you." . I love that. Did that feel good? What did that feel like? Oh, it was, it was a, it was a brief passing moment. doesn't happen much, but anyway. Good. I hope you're both stars, like brightly shining stars. That would be great. . Yeah. In my own mind. I am, I'm ready to do, there you go. Well, You know, people ask me all the time, how do you do something so serious all day long? And I say, because I'm not serious all day long, right. We find things to laugh about and we find things to, you know, see from a different perspective that adds a little more oh, I don't know. Just I mean, a lot of these people are incredibly demoralized and incredibly, they don't know what to do. They don't know what to say. They're hoping I know, but I usually don't. I'm just trying to help them and find their strengths or what I've learned from other people. So I'm just sort of this conduit. But anyway, I, I it, we do something very we do something that has a lot of seriousness to it in people's lives, but at the same time, like you said, you've both said in your own way, if we are trying to look like, you know, some kind of, and I'll use the term before immutable, or just unmoving or non-emotional. I mean, I, I, you could see what I'm feeling on my face, you know? Mm-Hmm. I'm so glad y'all are going in that direction and have other, how have other therapists reacted to y'all or responded to y'all? I don't, I I guess we're both pausing because I think, I think there has been a little bit of a, You're nodding your head... ...an uncomfortable response. Yeah. Like, you both have thriving private practices and businesses. You're both pretty well known in your communities, the clinical communities in Colorado and Illinois, and same with Victoria. Like, are you sure you wanna talk about anal sex? Yeah. , like, Are you sure you wanna admit that, you know, you like to hit it from the back? Like What , You know, there's like this, like uhoh danger. This is gonna jeopardize your brand, your reputation, your credibility. Right. And that is so deeply upsetting to Victoria and I, and we did a whole episode on the sexual revolution movement. And that was actually one of my favorites because if I want to be transparent as, as I embody, you know, being a sexual woman, that does not take away my credibility or my training or my expertise. No. And the fact that other clinicians have insinuated that it could tarnish who we are, that's very upsetting to me. Now, granted, there's a bunch of clinicians that are like, rah rah, we're your biggest cheerleaders. We love what you're doing. But there have been some where I'm like, oh, I'm disappointed in your response. And, you know, one of my immediate responses to that is, and how many, especially older therapists don't ever mention sex, even if they're seeing a couple or, or, or just, I mean, they never ask about your sex life. I mean, ever. They can't even say the words. I mean, I was literally taught intimate. Intimate, right? Intimate. Yeah. Oh, are you guys intimate? Are you guys intimate? But we don't have to go there. It's like yeah, we have to go there. It's a huge part of a relationship. . It's What? It's like not talking about, you know, eating and sleeping. I mean, my co my God. Well, it's funny. I mean, I, I don't, I don't believe I've ever talked about anal sex . I dunno. Maybe I have maybe some, some I have 300 and something odd episodes. I'm not sure I've, but even I have gotten you know, really? Do you want to, I mean, are you, you're just telling people all your secrets and one person you say to me all the time, your mother would just be so proud of you. And I said, my mother is turning over in her grave at this very point thinking that I'm revealing some of the things that I'm revealing about either my own life or about our family life, or just whatever. So, although respectfully cuz that's their lives, not mine. So I, I, I get it. I get it. And in fact, when I first started writing about Empty Nest, which was my first social media foray I would have friends go, are you okay? You sound like you've fallen apart . And I'd say, I'm just talking about what I'm really feeling, you know, But that, but that's, but that inherently makes me angry. Yeah. You know, and, and I know that we, we've just been, you know, having fun and laughing and talking and here, but that's, that's inherently problematic. Mm-Hmm. because the more that can clinicians... Right, right. Continue this persona that they don't feel that they don't struggle, that they're perfect. It is giving a false impression to everyone who we interact with. And that needs to change. It's, I'm not saying to be inappropriate, I'm not saying to not be professional or graceful or polished. Like we need to bring that to the field and we owe that to our clients, but there's, there's the ability to blend authenticity with that mm-hmm. . And so when we are getting, you know, feedback of like, I can't believe you said that. Oh my God. It's like, F... Off. Sorry. I just, that's, that's how I feel ... f... off. Right, right. Victoria yeah, you're, I'm snapping The hand gestures . I'm making face gestures, Hand gestures, All of it, all the gestures. I, I mean, I completely agree. I think, you know, it it, I remember when I went to go open my practice and I got so much from older female clinicians. Really? I mean, yeah. Like, there is like a, I don't know, it's like that mom daughter jealousy where you like, see somebody's youth or you see like that they're thriving and you're like, see their flat stomach. Right. You see their flat stomach and they're perky boobs and they're, you know, like, I hate you. You know, but it's like I think, I think it's been, it's been an interesting process being younger, which I'm not that young. I'm younger in the field and like having a robust practice and now having an awesome podcast and like, there's this idea that I think is an old idea that we have to suffer in order to like, get the dividends that we deserve. Right. Like, you, you should, you should die for that. And I'm, I'm somebody who just fully believes in abundance no matter. Like, I don't think you have to kill yourself in this field to like, make good money and have a good lifestyle. Mm-Hmm. , I hate that idea. Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. , you know, and so to the, to therapists that love it, I love them. And therapists that don't, I, I love them too, you know? Thank you. They leave really weird reviews and I love that One of, they said, The bad reviews are my favorite . Yeah. What, what was the, what was the oh, I remember it was like, I cannot believe the way that you spoke about Gen Z. You're off my rotation. And I was like, I am honored. I was on your rotation to begin with. That's amazing. Yeah. Mm-Hmm. . Oh my gosh. So, Okay, so we're kind of at the end of the interview. What, what else do you want people to know about, I mean, talking Shrinks. Well, I guess, yeah, go ahead. No, no. You, you want me? Okay. I want to well we are on Spotify and Apple and all of the platforms for Easy Access and you can also find us on our Buzz Sprout website. Oh. But the easiest way to do it is to, what's the easiest way to do it? Oh yeah. Type Shit Talking Shrinks into the Google search bar. Yeah. Thank you. Shit Talking Shrinks podcast into Google will all come up. We're on all the socials, we're on Instagram, we're on TikTok, LinkedIn Facebook, and it's Shit Talking Shrinks podcast. So you can find us easily, You know, open up the conversation about you know, what therapy is, what their, who therapists are. And, and especially for this generation that just seems to be so overloaded with information that they're trying to sift through. And y'all are going now, wait a minute. You know we have the same kind of confusion, modeling that kind of confusion and modeling that kind of, not modeling it like you're doing something on purpose, but modeling it because it is really you. I've, you know, this is something that I, that I can, I, I know what this feels like and I can, I can try to help you with this. Mm-Hmm. Good. Yeah. And to say we are beyond grateful for the opportunity to come on your show. Yeah. Like when when I got that email back, I was like, she wants us on our show. Really. Sure. I like called Victoria. I'm like, this is big. Yeah. We're so happy. Yeah, that's great. But thank you for, for seeing, for seeing the magic in us. Oh, yeah. I mean that, I definitely see it and I hear it and I hear it in this interview and I'm proud of the two of you. Thank you. And so I think you're a great team and I really am gonna recommend this highly am recommending this highly to SelfWork listeners who thank you want this kind of, and are looking for exactly this kind of, oh, I don't know, just relief mm-hmm. finding themselves somewhere just kind of a sense of, okay, I'm home. I'm home and I can laugh and I can cry and I can learn and all that kind of thing. So good for you. Yeah. Thank you. If, if, I don't know if we have to end at this moment, but I, I do have to say one of the things that I, I always try and leave people with and, and what I try and bring to the podcast is I think life is inherently struggle, right? Like, there's so much that we get brought that is so hard, and especially in times like today. And so a big, huge part of why I am happy today is because I believe that the universe wants us to be joyful. I believe that the universe wants us to have abundance and laugh and, and be full of love. And so I think that, you know, what I bring to the podcast and what, what is a big part of our podcast is that, that life should be that and that it's wanted for us. Yeah. You know? Love it. Yeah. You ladies are wonderful. You can tell I had a really good time in that interview. , they are funny and I think they have a wonderful point. I decided a long time ago not to be one of those therapists that, you know, looked like she was always calm and never expressed feelings. In fact, you can read my feelings on my face, so that wasn't even gonna be possible. So I hope that this interests both you who aren't clinicians and some of you who are. As always, I appreciate your presence here on SelfWork. I hope this gave you a smile. Please take very good care of yourself, your family, and your community. I'm Dr. Margaret and this has been SelfWork.   Our Sponsors: * Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code SELFWORK for a great deal: happymammoth.com * Check out Paired: paired.com/SELFWORK Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands